Taekwondo Tenents & Patterns

If you have searched my Chinese and Japanese Calligraphy Dictionary, and did not find the word or title that you were looking for, we'll be happy to add it for you. Just tell us the word or title you want, and what it means to you.
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GWLS
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Taekwondo Tenents & Patterns

Post by GWLS » Feb 24, 2010 11:06 am

Gary - i've seen on the site all of the 5 tenents but not together on one scroll, and as I am planning to have them tattooed I don't want to be embarassed later on by having combined the phrases incorrectly/in the wrong order.

Courtesy (Ye Ui)
Integrity (Yom Chi)
Perseverance (In Nae)
Self-Control (Guk Gi)
Indomitable Spirit (Baekjul Boolgul)

Do you have a scroll with them all included the correct format? looking for the best looking calligraphy type possible, it is to be tattooed on my ribs vertically, so should fit well.

Also in Taekwondo, each "grade" or Kup/Gup has a specific pattern to progress to the next stage do you have the Hanji for these? (thinking of another tattoo(s) which represent the journey with a new tattoo added after each sucessful completion of the grade. i've managed to find most except for the very first one which is called "sajo jirugi", which I believe is a literal translation of 4 directional punching, but the white belt signifies innocence, as that of the beginning student who has no previous knowledge of Tae Kwon-do

Happy to discuss further offline

KR

Gary

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Post by Gary » Feb 24, 2010 2:54 pm

I believe the last entry on this page is what you are looking for:
http://www.orientaloutpost.com/taekwondo.php

Do keep in mind that we also offer a tattoo image template service where you get 90 different characters styles to choose from for a reasonable price.

For your "4 directional punching", do you have the Korean Hangul or Hanja for that? Using romanized korean is not a great way to guess. I tried a few different punch, strike, or hit words in Korean, but none of them seem similar to what you presented.

Cheers,
-Gary.

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Post by GWLS » Mar 2, 2010 8:53 am

Gary

Been doing some additional research, have found a poster ( a number of variants) but all consistent, seems to align (partly) with your site. Can you check for me (attached Tenants of TKD image) and if looks right, how do I go about getting a tattoo template as suggested as well as what is the price?

In addition I am part way through my dragon tattoo (picture attached) and will be going to have the colour added to the dragon and the top colours added to flower and leaves in about 10 days time.... do you know a) what the flower is? and b) see from other posts that there must be some do's and don't from a dragon colour perspective? the artist has advised from a colour choice for dragon to stick with either yellow, green or blues, is there anything I should or should not be choosing and do the colours have specific meaning in themselves based on the choices provided?

thanks in advance and BTW great website and forum!

G
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The-Tenets-of-Tae-Kwon-Do.jpg
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dragon tattoo (WIP)

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Post by Gary » Mar 3, 2010 12:26 am

Here are the parts of that in Chinese (Korean Hanja) with meanings:

跆拳道精神 The Spirit of Taekwondo
礼仪 廉耻 忍耐 Etiquette, Sense of Honor, Tolerant
克己 百折不屈 Self-denial, Indomitable Spirit

Do you want the "Spirit of Taekwondo" title included, or just the other parts?

The flower is a peony. Some random facts:
It's the unofficial national flower of China.
Imperial concubines used to wear them in their hair to attract the favor of the Emperor.
In Chinese, these flowers are often titled "Fu Gui" which means "riches and honor".
The roots of the flowers are used in Chinese medicine.

Dragons are often gray, blue, red, greenish or black. They can be yellow (golden) but that is the color of the Emperor. A yellow or golden dragon may appear a bit arrogant as a tattoo. This will only feel weird for native Chinese people.

Check out this page to see some traditional dragon artwork and colors:
http://www.orientaloutpost.com/chinese-dragon-art.php

Cheers,
-Gary.

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Post by GWLS » Mar 3, 2010 10:51 am

Thanks Gary

I would like to go with the inclusion of the "spirit of taekwondo" so that it will immediately resonate with those in the know and have a little more meaning to the uninformed when I educate them - so how do I go about placing a tattoo template order and what would the cost be? I'm based on the Uk, so I am assuming I can order this online with you with reference to this thread and pay by card?

On the Dragon tattoo WIP front, interesting stuff, thanks for the information - I had been leading towards yellow, since I understand from research that this was a powerful dragon, however they had left out the crucial bit, so very glad now I asked! I would never wish to offend anyone.

Interestingly today I came accross some reference to "wood dragon" being blue green in colour or at least that the colour's blue/green represented the element Wood, whereas Red signifies Fire, Black for Water, yellow for earth (and the connection to the period of the emperor and his worship for the colour yellow, representing the earth and his value on farming) and white signifes the element metal... If this is true then this is perfect as my better half is a "wood dragon" from a chinese astrology perspective and blue-green would be a perfect and informed colour choice, giving the tattoo additional meaning.

Thanks for your continued help and support on my research, much appreciated!

G

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Post by Gary » Mar 5, 2010 4:00 pm

I got a little ahead of myself and built a link for ordering a custom wall scroll: Spirit of Taekwondo

As for a tattoo template. I will count the title as 2 words, and then there's the 6 tenets, so 8 words total. But I don't have to invest so much in translator services (since you provided the text via your image). So let's just call it 5 words total.

The service is billed at $20 for the first word, and $5 each additional, so $40 total.
That should be about £27 Pounds Sterling.

Order here:
http://www.orientaloutpost.com/chinese- ... ervice.php

Cheers,
-Gary.
Last edited by Gary on Dec 6, 2011 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by GWLS » Mar 8, 2010 6:34 am

Gary

Order Placed!

Any chance you could answer my question related to colour and the element "wood" in the previous posting? Sorry having colours done tomorrow and wanted a view if possible, assuming you know the answer.

G

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Post by Gary » Mar 8, 2010 10:26 pm

I'm going to be a bit dismissive on that. You can make an argument that a red dragon represents fire. Another person will argue that a red dragon is an auspicious or lucky symbol.

Anything you apply to dragons as far as color is both subjective and subject to different interpretations.

The most established dragon color is the yellow or golden dragon being a representation or symbol of the emperor. But someone else will argue a different point of view.

There probably is a valid answer, but it's so complex that people literally spend years studying it. It starts with yin yang and you cross "ba gua" (The eight divinatory trigrams of the Book of Changes) - you may know "ba gua" as the eight direction seen around the yin yang symbol on the South Korean flag.

Chinese culture has been developing symbology for more than 3,500 years. It's deep.

I have at least 5 books with more than 600 pages each on the subject of symbology in Chinese culture/history. Each of them contradicts something claimed or presented as fact in one of the others.

Now you know why I resist giving absolute answers.

FYI: I am working on your tattoo template now. I should have it ready by tomorrow.

Cheers,
-Gary.

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Post by Rob C » Mar 15, 2011 5:45 am

Hi Gary,

I'm also interested in having a tattoo of the tenets of Tae Kwon Do according to Gen Choi's scroll as pictured above in this thread. (see also http://tkdspace.com/public/forum/posts/id_316/page_1/)

A couple of things I need to clear up first...

- In the scroll above, am I right in thinking these are written in Korean Hanja?

- According to your translation, the Korean Hanja is:

跆拳道精神 The Spirit of Taekwondo
礼仪 廉耻 忍耐 Etiquette, Sense of Honor, Tolerant
克己 百折不屈 Self-denial, Indomitable Spirit

Looking at other web pages I notice that your translation for Courtesy/Etiquette looks slightly different to others I have seen, i.e.

禮儀, vs 礼仪

There also seems to be a subtle discrepancy with the hanja for integrity, though it may just be the font:

廉恥, vs 廉耻

(see http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums ... hp?t=53794)

EDIT: http://www.orientaloutpost.com/shufa.php?q=TKD suggests the first versions are correct

Can you clarify which of these are "correct"? As I appreciate how subtle differences can have substantial impact on meaning I'd like to be sure.

Once this is sorted I'd like to proceed with an order and see what designs you can offer.

Thanks,

Rob

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Post by Gary » Mar 15, 2011 9:25 am

The first question was whether these were written in old Korean Hanja. The answer is "yes". It should be noted that Hanja are Chinese characters borrowed into the Korean language (Japan did the same thing about 100 years after Korea). Original Korean language and grammar is heavily influenced by Chinese. In fact, most ancient Korean literature and idioms can be read fluently in Chinese (and vice-versa).

All the meanings can be translated the way you noted. Translation is an art, so while someone will translate one of your words as "self-denial", others might translate it as, "self-abnegation", "self-restraint", "self-discipline", "self-mastery" or "selflessness". There are rarely "absolute" answers when translating.

Let's address the other issue...

This is the Traditional Chinese version of this word:


Notice the capital "T" in Traditional Chinese. This is the proper title.

This is the Simplified Chinese version:


Note again the capital "S". This is the result of an effort by Chairman Mao to make the language easier to read and write so peasants in China could achieve a higher rate of literacy. This did work, but fans of Traditional Chinese characters complain that it takes the "art" out of the characters. Both points are valid. I'm all for literacy, but Traditional Chinese characters date back to past 2,232 years ago. I firmly believe that with very few exceptions, Chinese calligraphy should be written with Traditional Chinese characters. The Chinese calligraphers that I've met and work with all agree.

Another thing to note: They simplified in Japan too. They actually refer to it as a language reformation, most of which occurred just after WWII. Many Japanese Kanji that had their original Chinese form morphed into something more simple. Often, the Simplified Chinese form is also the modern Japanese form. Such is the case with:


In modern Japanese, you would write that word this way:



Also with integrity, Traditional Chinese: Simplified Chinese:
No change on first character of this word.


Here's an example of what can happen:
Original Traditional Chinese version (also Korean Hanja) of energy or "chi":
Life Energy / Spiritual Energy

Japanese morphed version:


Simplified Chinese version:


The reasons and means by which each character was simplified varies. Typically, they would use the Caoshu (cursive) form of the character, which often dropped several strokes. But some characters were randomly dissected like a frog in a middle school biology lab.

I don't know if you saw this already, but here is a sample which shows all the styles you get access to when you purchase a tattoo template from us:
http://www.orientaloutpost.com/bushido-tattoo.php

The price is $20 for the first English word, and $5 each additional word. Within reason, we max that out at $65 for 10 or more words. You're pretty close to that, as I count yours at 9-10 English words.

I can either put them all in one template (like the image you linked to), or I can make several separate templates. This will depend on how you want to use these.

Cheers,
-Gary.

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Post by Rob C » Mar 15, 2011 9:58 am

Some great information there, appreciated - thanks Gary.

Inkeeping with tradition and General Choi's own calligraphy I'd like these tenets in Traditional Chinese please.

I understand these are read vertical, top-to-bottom, right-to-left, as per the above image. I'm thinking of having this on my upper back/shoulder as one group to match the layout of the image above so one template is fine.

As for the font - reading your descriptions I'm inclined to believe these tenets would be best suited for Xing-Kai Shu or Xing Shu to retain the calligraphic style?

Thanks,

Rob

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Post by Gary » Mar 15, 2011 11:04 pm

The style is really a matter of personal preference. There's not an absolute rule or guideline for this.

While I would not use a modern style, as that would be a bad fit in most cases, the choice is yours.

You can go with an ancient seal script style, if you want it to look really old.

You can go with your favorite xingshu or xing-kaishu style to suit your own style.

You can even use a caoshu style and make it flowing-but-nearly-unreadable.

In short, "make it yours". You're the one who will wear this forever.

-Gary.

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Post by Rob C » Mar 16, 2011 3:34 am

Thanks Gary.

So as per above it'll be the same text as in your Spirit of Tae Kwon Do wall scroll, retaining Traditional Chinese/Korean Hanja and arranged in the same format as General Choi's calligraphy above.

How many words shall I record this as in the order?

Thanks,

Rob

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Post by Gary » Mar 16, 2011 8:49 am

I'll count it as 9 words. Your total will be $60...
http://www.orientaloutpost.com/chinese- ... ervice.php

I'll be sure to break it into 3 columns so that it approximates the way it's done in the image you provided.

-Gary.

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Post by Rob C » Mar 16, 2011 9:04 am

That's done, thanks Gary

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Post by Gary » Mar 16, 2011 3:07 pm

I was setting up your tattoo template and came across one issue that we should discuss. Here it is...

In the image that you and the other customer referenced has one of the words written as:
(without radical)

When I try to look that up in my Korean dictionary, I only find this version:
(with radical)

The difference is in the radical which appears in the right character on the left side of that character.

When I present this conundrum to my Chinese translator, she favors the first version above (without radical).

However, when I went to see my old friend Mr. Kim to ask him (he's 65+ years old from Korea, and from the last generation to actually use Hanja regularly), he favors the second version (with the radical). We also discussed the possibility that it's just an alternate form from a Korean perspective, so either version is OK. This happens in Chinese all the time.

The difference in meaning is subtle if a difference exists at all. With the radical, this is about the courtesy and etiquette exhibited by a person. Without the radical, it's the courtesy and etiquette exhibited by an entire community (or country). Either way, it's still "courtesy / etiquette". The radical itself happens to be the "person" or "human" radical.

If you have any sources, images, or anything that we can use to verify this, I will happily review it.

-Gary.

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Post by Rob C » Mar 17, 2011 5:58 am

Thanks for flagging this.

In the context of the tenets of Tae Kwon Do, Courtesy is defined as

"It can be said that courtesy is an unwritten regulation prescribed by ancient teacher of philosophy as a means to enlighten human beings while maintaining a harmonious society. It can further be as an ultimate criterion required of a mortal.Taekwon-Do students should attempt to practice the following elements of courtesy to build up their noble character and to conduct training in an orderly manner as well."

Nine Reasons to Practice Courtesy

To promote the spirit of mutual concessions.
To be ashamed of one's vices, contempting those of others.
To be polite to one another.
To encourage the sense of justice and humanity.
To distinguish instructor from student, senior from junior, and elder from younger.
To behave oneself according to etiquette.
To respect other's possessions.
To handle matters with fairness and sincerity.
To refrain from giving or accepting any gift when in doubt.

- General Choi Hong Hi, IX Dan Grand Master, Father of Taekwon-Do


I guess like many translations this is open to interpretation, though going by the above quote I would probably sway towards using the radical to address it as an inwardly focussed personal aim, which somewhat conflicts with General Choi's own calligraphy above.

EDIT: thinking about this further, I'm more inclined to stay consistent with General Choi's own calligraphy shown in the image above, also referenced for merchandise on other websites, i.e. http://www.comdo.com/pro-shop.html and http://www.lustaekwondo.com/resources/t ... pplies.htm

Decisions...

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Post by Gary » Mar 17, 2011 11:37 am

Now that the bag of snakes is open, let's address these related issues...

I have not done any research to know whether this print of characters that's floating around on tee-shirts and dog tags is the original work of General Choi. Enough people think it is, so let's just suppose that's true.

He wrote another character in an alternate form as you pointed out originally. This happens to be an alternate form of the character which later became the official Simplified Chinese version. This character does not even appear in my Korean Hanja dictionary:


The Traditional Chinese version looks like this, and also appears in my Korean Hanja dictionary:


To make it simple, the first one has the "truth/real/correct" radical, and the second one has the "heart/mind/soul" radical on the right side.

I did some deeper research...
Both characters are definitely pronounced (ci) in Korean.
Both mean shame or to be ashamed. However, was rarely used.

We're getting down to the nitty-gritty of what is really the Asian version of spelling or writing style. It's like the man's name Sean, Shaun, or Shawn. Same name, just different ways to write it.

The thing is, anyone who can read Chinese or Korean Hanja will also be able to read and understand this no matter which of the two versions of these two characters you use. Another way to put it is, "technically, none of these are wrong". Maybe somebody could perceive them as being wrong. This will depend on if they feel it's wrong if it's not written in the most common Korean vernacular (General Choi used his own special way), or if it's wrong if this phrase is not written exactly the way General Choi wrote it.

You can't lose here, I'm just not sure which way will be a win for you.

At least this way, you get more information to work with than just a flasher at the tattoo parlor.

-Gary.

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Post by Rob C » Mar 17, 2011 4:25 pm

Invaluable information, and this is exactly why I came to you - appreciate your scrutiny.

A very valid point that I can't be sure the provided imagery is the actual work of General Choi himself - what does the smaller lettering read on the very far left of the tenets?

I notice the above image also has a watermark of Copyright D Woolsey 2001

I'd like to run this by some senior Tae Kwon Do instructors to see if they can offer any further insight but at this stage I'm inclined to maintain the purist attitude and stick with the original lettering format as _presumably_ written by General Choi.

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Post by Rob C » Mar 26, 2011 6:47 am

Hi Gary,

Quick update - my Tae Kwon Do instructor is unable to verify that this is definitely General Choi's work, though he has seen many familiar pieces like it before.

I've now emailed the International Tae Kwon Do Federation directly to try and get an official answer - will keep you posted

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Post by Rob C » Apr 18, 2011 6:21 am

hey Gary,

No further luck my side I'm afraid - the ITF haven't responded to my mail and my senior instructors can't confirm the image's authenticity to General Choi.

Is there anyone you can check with who may be able to give us a definite answer?

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Post by Gary » Apr 19, 2011 11:44 pm

This is tough. I have experts in Chinese and Japanese available. I'm just very limited on Korean experts and resources. I talked to my friend Mr. Kim who is an older Korean who is from the right generation to still know Hanja. But even he read the phrase with alternate versions of those characters and came to the conclusion that they could be written either way in Korean.

We need an expert in Korean literature, but I don't know where to begin to find one. Maybe something will come to me.

-Gary.

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Post by Gary » Apr 22, 2011 3:29 pm

I was able to do some research. Once you figure out what General Choi's name is in Korean Hanja, you can look up a lot of information in Chinese about him. It also means I now know what his signature (full name) is. The image that we've been throwing around here is signed by him:



It was hard to find a color version, but it should be noted that there was a red personal stamp in the upper right corner, and his red signature stamps in the lower left corner of the original calligraphy:



It is his signature above the stamps at the lower left. At least it's his name, and I presume he signed his own name (versus a calligrapher doing this for him, and then signing General Choi's name).

There are other images floating around out there such as this one:

This is absolutely not General Choi's writing. In fact, it could be a Chinese calligraphy font (like the ones we use for our tattoo templates).

I don't know what we should do if you take my next suggestion (a partial refund, etc)...
If I was the Taekwondo master who was going to get this tattoo, I would really consider getting the original calligraphy (meaning use one of the first two images above) and using that as the template for my tattoo.

By the way, I read a bit about Choi's life on those Chinese websites. Seems he was born in Japan, but moved to North Korea. He was battling the International Taekwondo Federation (ITF), and some officials in the North Korean government, and this eventually led to him moving to Canada and establishing the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF).

Seems politics and sports always cross somewhere.

-Gary.

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Post by Rob C » Apr 26, 2011 1:36 pm

Fantastic information there, thanks very much for spending the time on this Gary, it's appreciated.

Now we can be sure that the latest provided images are, to the very best of our knowledge, the work of General Choi then I agree that from a purist perspective, it would be best to use this as my template for real authenticity.

Happy to hear your suggestions RE a partial refund, taking into consideration the research you've put into this for me.

Cheers,

Rob

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Post by mehamgul101 » Aug 20, 2011 12:10 am

well i must thanks Gray by guiding us here in right direction so thanks for it

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