prints of chinese ancestor paintings

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prints of chinese ancestor paintings

Postby elizabeth baxter, ph.d. » Dec 7, 2007 6:47 am

Do you carry prints of chinese ancestor paintings?
If you don't, could you refer me to other sources?
Thank you.
Elizabeth Baxter, Ph.D.
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Postby Gary » Dec 8, 2007 1:38 am

I can get some of these for you, but almost all of them are "prints" - actually "half prints".

The detail black lines tend to be printed (in the old days, using a wood block, but currently by printing press), and then someone hand-paints in all the color and some of the face details.

I only sell 100% hand-painted artwork on our website, so I don't list items like this. But I can get some and have them mounted for you to wall scrolls with silk color of your choice.

Even though these are partially-printed, they are not cheap. They are done on handmade paper that is stained with tea (to make it look old). I expect that each finished wall scroll will be $130 (add $20 if you want polished hardwood knobs and a solid wood roller).

Let me know if you want to pursue this.

Cheers,
-Gary.
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chinese ancestor paintings

Postby elizabeth baxter, ph.d. » Dec 8, 2007 4:38 am

Gary, The Boss,
Thanks for your prompt reply to my request concerning Chinese ancestor paintings....yes, I would like very much to have you investigate and get some for me....

I would want to be able to see them....is that possible?

Thanks again,
Elizabeth Baxter, Ph.D.
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Postby Gary » Dec 9, 2007 4:22 pm

No worries...

I'll contact the sister of Mr. Ou-Yang. She handles those in her gallery, and can get a nice set for you. She's also kind of an employee of Oriental Outpost, and handles a lot of procurement of artwork in the Guilin area for us. Basically, I meet the artists, decide to work with them, but they are often in outlying villages without access to post offices, etc. She goes to those places to pay those independent artists, pick up the new artwork, and send it to our workshop in Beijing for mounting (building wall scrolls, or adding silk borders).

You are not under obligation, and it sounds like you want to see them first. That will take a bit longer, as we schedule them through the photo studio (I'm also the photographer). But you can see them before you make a final decision.

It will take over a month for all of this to happen (possibly two months) so it won't be fast by any means. But anything worthwhile in China, takes time.

Note that the ones I will be getting are the same ones often sold in markets around China to tourists, with the claim that they are antiques. They are very good "fakes". In fact, they are so good, that they might be better quality than the originals.

I just want you to know the "real deal" and I would only sell them to you with that understanding, that these are simply "really good partially-hand-painted high-quality fake antique paintings".

The ones sold in those markets often have a faux mold spray applied to the silk to make them look older/aged. I know somebody that does that (we prepared some wall scrolls for a movie using that technique to make them look older). So we can do that if you wish.

You'll also need to decide if you want our standard white, or gold silk on these. There is also an option for more "original" white cloth (I think it's a silk blend - but not nearly as shiny as the brocade we normally use). It's about $10 extra for that material per scroll. We also have some polished hardwood knobs and solid wood rollers available, but that is about $20 extra per scroll (half of that is the increased weight and shipping cost).

I'm telling you about the extras, yet I am not totally sure of the base price. That will probably be not-too-much over $100 each. Even though they are partially-printed, they are not cheap by any means.

Cheers,
-Gary.
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Postby elizabeth baxter, ph.d. » Dec 10, 2007 6:13 am

Dear Gary,

This all sounds very exciting! Yes, I would like to be able to see photos of what is possible, so that I can then decide to buy.

The prices sound within the range I can afford.
I do not want to look for real antique ancestor paintings....I couldn't possibly afford them!

I am hoping to find a copy that is a reproduction of a male ancestor, in the blue kimono, with the traditional black no-brim hat with red edging around the top. If the figure is just waist-high, that would be the perfect one for me. However, full-length is fine also, if we cannot find one that's just waist-high.
The other possibility that I am looking for is of two figures; one male, one female.....he in the blue kimono and she in the red.

Thank you for being able and ready to help me; I haven't had any success in the years that I have been looking without someone like you!

I don't care how long it takes.....as I said, I've been hoping and hunting for years.

Thank you for your willingness to be the man with the contacts, the expertise, and the ability to help.

Cordially,
Elizabeth Baxter, Ph.D.
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Postby Gary » Dec 10, 2007 10:57 am

I'll see what we can get. I'll probably end up with "The Yellow Emperor" and his wife. I might be able to find something in blue like this:
Image ...but no guarantees.

Cheers,
-Gary.
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Postby elizabeth baxter, ph.d. » Dec 11, 2007 6:08 am

Gary,
that is exactly what I was trying to describe; that is absolutely magnificent!
Oh, you mentioned background choices; I think the white would set something like that off just beautifully.
Where did you get that picture you sent me as an example?
Elizabeth
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Postby Gary » Dec 12, 2007 12:52 am

I just used Google image search. I think I searched for "Chinese Ancestor Paintings".

The image is from here:
http://antiqueshoppefl.com/archives/agilbert/chinese.jpg

But that site does not seem to sell Chinese things.

Cheers,
-Gary.
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Postby elizabeth baxter, ph.d. » Jan 17, 2008 7:52 pm

Dear Gary,
Any new news on the hunt for replicas of Chinese ancestor paintings? I'm still very very interested! Do reply, even if there isn't any update or any luck at finding....
Thanks.
E.Baxter, Ph.D.
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Postby Gary » Jan 19, 2008 10:44 pm

They are coming, but slowly (as it seems all things that are worthwhile do). I am waiting for an answer back to see if they have arrived at our workshop in Beijing from Guilin. If they have, we should be about 30 days away (two weeks to mount them and two weeks for air mail to the USA).

Cheers,
-Gary.
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Postby elizabeth baxter, ph.d. » Jan 20, 2008 12:57 pm

Dear Gary "The Boss"
Thanks so much for the update.....will you have photos once they arrive?
Elizabeth
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Postby elizabeth baxter, ph.d. » Apr 23, 2008 5:24 am

To Gary....
Haven't gotten an update in over 4 months now....what's the latest on Chinese ancestor paintings?
Please let me know; I am still interested in obtaining, but wonder now about whether or not it will come true.
Please advise.
Elizabeth Baxter, Ph.D.
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Postby Gary » May 8, 2008 11:20 pm

Sorry for the delay. I am not sure were we got derailed in our process. Part of the problem was frankly a matter of having thousands of pieces of artwork to process (literally a year's worth of artwork) and losing track of yours.

I went back to Guilin and got a few more, just to be sure. They are in Beijing, and per a phone call that ended 5 minutes ago, they are finished, and now just have to be scheduled for shipment from Beijing to our studio in San Diego. This can get tricky, as we have to ship yours in bulk with other like-sized scrolls in a special box. We have to limit the quantity we ship each week to avoid conflict with Homeland Security and Customs. I am only mentioning this to prepare you for the possibility of delay in getting them here (Once Murphy's Law takes hold, it tends to stay until the end).

I'm sorry again that this has taken so long.
I'm pretty much going to avoid or decline to take any more custom orders like this in the future, as I just can't guarantee a reasonable delivery date due to our own shortcomings. I should see the writing on the wall, as it takes about 6 months to a year to get artwork that I buy now, mounted, transported, photographed, and listed for sale on our website.

Yours,
-Gary.
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Postby elizabeth baxter, ph.d. » May 9, 2008 4:19 pm

Dear Gary,
Thanks for the reply....I am glad to know the deliveries will be beginning! Please let me know when you have pictures of the ancestor paintings you receive.....and again, I can wait easily, now that I know they are on the way.
Thanks also, for the explanation of what you have to go through. It helps me to understand what goes on at your end.
E. Baxter
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Postby Gary » Jun 24, 2008 3:44 pm

It was more challenging than I expected. I actually ended up buying several (after the first batch was misplaced at our workshop). Homeland Security also did their part to delay things as well.

How do these look?


Image Image Image Image Image Image

I even have some Buddha ones:
Image Image Image Image Image

And other stuff:
Image Image Image



All of them are mounted like this:
Image
In the photos, the "Emperor Yellow" panels are coming out brighter than they appear in real life. Just a shortcoming of digital photography, and how reflective the silk can be under photo lights.

Let me know if the ancestor paintings are suitable, or if you want to explore some of the other artwork that I picked up while I was searching for your request.

Cheers,
-Gary.
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Chinese ancestor paintings

Postby rschwendeman » Jan 7, 2009 11:07 pm

Gary,

These are very nice reproductions! Good job!

There are some antique ones around as well still though you really need to know where to get them and this is normally far from the cities in places where antique buyers tend to congregate. We tend to get ours direct from peasants. If you want to see what the real ones look like, have a look here. Pretty amazing actually.

http://www.antique-chinese-furniture.com/blog/2005/04/18/chinese-ancestor-painting/

Image

Feel free to call/email me next time you are in town.
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Postby Gary » Jan 8, 2009 10:20 am

There's really too many fakes in China of these. I don't do much with this category of artwork. In fact, I only deal in reproductions if a customer makes a specific request, or if I see something that I really personally like.

I've had dealers, peasants, and others swear up and down that a painting was hundreds of years old and authentic. I simply get out my magnifying glass, and show them evidence that it is printed (sometimes there is an obvious half-tone pattern).

Also, take it from someone who has been detained in China and accused of attempting to export artwork of historical significance... The customs issues, antique tax, and export tax that can be leveed makes the whole prospect very expensive and troublesome.

FYI: I was detained in 2002 for a painting that was only a couple years old. I had no paperwork because I had purchased it directly from the artist for cash. They claimed it was an antique and had historical significance. I showed them that he artist had dated it, and it was painted in 2000. They claimed (since there is a 60-year cycle in the artwork dating scheme) that it was 122 years old (they counted two 60-year cycles plus 2 years). I learned from that experience to have my paperwork in order (even if I was the one who created the paperwork myself - it's weird how paperwork of any kind legitimizes anything in China).

Thanks for the comments and offer though.

Cheers,
-Gary.
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Postby rschwendeman » Jan 9, 2009 2:19 am

Gary wrote:There's really too many fakes in China of these. I don't do much with this category of artwork. In fact, I only deal in reproductions if a customer makes a specific request, or if I see something that I really personally like.

I've had dealers, peasants, and others swear up and down that a painting was hundreds of years old and authentic. I simply get out my magnifying glass, and show them evidence that it is printed (sometimes there is an obvious half-tone pattern).

Also, take it from someone who has been detained in China and accused of attempting to export artwork of historical significance... The customs issues, antique tax, and export tax that can be levied makes the whole prospect very expensive and troublesome.

FYI: I was detained in 2002 for a painting that was only a couple years old. I had no paperwork because I had purchased it directly from the artist for cash. They claimed it was an antique and had historical significance. I showed them that he artist had dated it, and it was painted in 2000. They claimed (since there is a 60-year cycle in the artwork dating scheme) that it was 122 years old (they counted two 60-year cycles plus 2 years). I learned from that experience to have my paperwork in order (even if I was the one who created the paperwork myself - it's weird how paperwork of any kind legitimizes anything in China).

Thanks for the comments and offer though.

Cheers,
-Gary.


Image

Image

Gary,

I would be very curious to hear more about your experience being detained (and how you resolved the situation). Also, in 2002 the legal age for exportability was 150 years. Note that the worst method (most likely to cause trouble) is hand carrying an item out at the airport of a ground crossing. Even obvious cheap reproductions have been know to cause trouble there. Other stories may involve officials either being over zealous in the jobs or sometimes even looking for some financial incentives.

Have a look here for the full rundown on whats involved in exporting antiquities (of any kind) out of China. This is pretty exhausting in talking about what can and cannot be exported (as well as imported into China) along with how is assessed.

http://www.antique-chinese-furniture.com/blog/2008/11/23/guide-to-relic-inspection-certificates-customs-documents-and-export-requirements-for-antiques/

Reproductions are easy to avoid - simply only buy them in situations were reproductions are unlikely. In this case, for ancestor paintings the best method is to buy if from a peasant (far out of the city) who is simply looking to get rid of it and views it as junk. This is how we buy are antique furniture as well. If you are buying it from ANY other location such as a market, a dealer or otherwise, its likely to be fake.

The one pictured above is quite cool - the paint in certain sections ate away at the underlying fabric when someone tried to retouch it years back. There is also different layers and types of paint used as additional generations were painted on over the years. And of course, the other sign is the fabric has deteriorated pretty badly in sections. Generally these are good indicators. New ones are either too perfectly painted, too perfectly aged. Dipping them in tea is a common method they use. One you see a real one, the reproductions stand out right away. The fakes also tend to be geared towards the "low end." (single generation, wrong details etc)

The one shown above would have trouble going out, though if you look at the link, the 2nd one shown there would pass (using the recommended procedures) as quite frankly, old or not many Chinese consider these sort of things to be junk! (and maybe haunted as well).


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Postby Gary » Mar 16, 2009 1:41 pm

Dr. Baxter,

I am guessing these were not suitable for you. I have a good sum invested in these now, so I need to start selling them. I was hoping to give you first choice, and then sell the rest after you picked the ones you like.

Let me know if you still want a pair of these, as I'll start listing them for sale on our website soon.

-Gary.,
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