Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

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Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

Post by JRL+ » Jan 31, 2013 2:14 pm

I am looking to perhaps have a caligraphy done of the begining of psalm 42:7.
Abyssus Abyssum Invocat
Abyss invokes Abyss

would this be 深淵 Abyss
呼び起こす to invoke
or 起動 invoke?

Thank you for your art and work.

peace,
jrl+

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Gary
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Re: Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

Post by Gary » Feb 1, 2013 1:50 am

Psalms 42:7 looks like this from the version I could find quickly online:
わが魂はわたしのうちにうなだれる。それで、わたしはヨルダンの地から、またヘルモンから、ミザルの山からあなたを思い起す。
An English version is, "Deep calleth unto deep at the noise of thy waterspouts: all thy waves and thy billows are gone over me".
However, it's written in kind of reverse order, and with some a lot of "poetic license" to make it understandable/relatable in Japanese (I guess). It's more about remembering impressive mountains (apparently somewhere in Jordan) that overwhelm you (or rather your spirit). I think it's meant to be melancholy. I really can't relate this to the verse it's supposed to be.

Maybe Yankee will chime in here, as he probably knows a lot more. I'd need a couple hours to do the research, and he can probably grab his Bible and make perfect sense of this for you. My Japanese is really rusty.

-Gary.

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Re: Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

Post by Gary » Feb 1, 2013 2:00 am

I think the online-Japanese Bible I found had some errors. I think verse 6 and 7 were reversed. The Japanese above was more like:
O my God, my soul is cast down within me: therefore will I remember thee from the land of Jordan, and of the Hermonites, from the hill Mizar.

This is the one you want:
あなたの大滝の響きによって淵々呼びこたえ、あなたの波、あなたの大波は/ことごとくわたしの上を越えていった。

This is all about you experiencing the echo in the depths of the sea. Summoning the waves, to be overwhelmed by the billows and surging seas.

I'm not sure how we should pull out the short bits that you want in a way that still makes sense.

-Gary.

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Re: Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

Post by Yankee » Feb 1, 2013 7:29 am

Sorry, I just saw this thread.

I can look up the verse in my Japanese Bible and post it here later this evening when I get home. I'll also isolate the specific part of the text that you're wanting and give you a breakdown of the characters at that time.

Scott

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Re: Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

Post by JRL+ » Feb 1, 2013 9:16 am

I have seen the text you posted before though I feel it lacks some of the poetry and terce points that the Latin, Greek and to some degree the English have. My Japanese is not great but it seems the text is more of a conversational style, which is good for converying some of the layers of meaning, though misses some of the nuances brought out in the works of Tauler, Eckhart and to a lesser extent Suso. During my training in Japan, the text in calligraphy often from sutras were terce and without or with little grammer. I think it may be some thing as simple as 深淵 深淵 稱 but I am no poet of Japanese. Perhaps some grammer is need to show relationlity between the abysses.

Thank you for you help and creativity.

peace,
jrl+

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Re: Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

Post by Gary » Feb 1, 2013 11:21 am

Maybe there is a more suitable version of this verse in a different version of the Japanese Bible. It's just like how we have the NIV, KJV, NKJV, NAS, etc.

It's hard to equate the way a verse sounds in English to Japanese. In fact the best translation would be from the original Hebrew, Greek, and/or Aramaic to Japanese. But most Japanese Bible translations come from English (as least as far as I've been told be frustrated Japanese Christians who are occasionally bewildered by strange phrases in their Bibles).

Of course, you'll find many American Christians who act as if the Bible was always a book and was originally written in King James English. I think the idea of "English Bible superiority" is part of the problem with Bible translations in other languages.

Yankee will be able to help best here, though I feel bad when he donates so much of his time here (be sure to thank him).

-Gary.

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Re: Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

Post by Yankee » Feb 1, 2013 6:25 pm

It’s not a problem. I enjoy helping out wherever I can. :-)

Okay, Psalm 42:7 in the 新改訳 [Shinkaiyaku] Japanese translation of the Bible reads as follows:

あなたの大滝のとどろきに、淵が淵を呼び起こし、あなたの波、あなたの大波は、みな私の上を越えて行きました。 [emphasis mine]

The relevant portion is highlighted in red. The breakdown of that phrase is the following:

淵 [fuchi]
‘deep pool’; ‘deep water’; ‘abyss’

が [ga]
subject marker

淵 [fuchi]
‘deep pool’; ‘deep water’; ‘abyss’

を [o]
object marker

呼び起こし [yobiokoshi]
‘to wake [someone] (by calling [to him])’; ‘to awaken’; ‘to arouse’; ‘to call (to mind)’

Please, note that the verb form used at the end is such that it requires the sentence to continue (which is appropriate in this context since the verse does go on to say other things). Therefore, if I were going to isolate this phrase from the rest of the original context and use it by itself, I would make the following small change to the verb ending:

淵が淵を呼び起こ [fuchi ga fuchi o yobiokosu] [emphasis mine]

Notice that the only difference is the very last phonetic character (highlighted in red). This just puts the verb in its plain form and also allows the sentence to stand alone.

So, as far as the meaning, this is very close to “the abyss calleth to the abyss,” which is pretty much dead on the Latin “abyssus abyssum invocat.” There is a subtle nuance in the compound verb 呼び起こす [yobiokosu] in that it’s composed of two simpler verbs, the first meaning ‘to call out’ and the second meaning ‘to wake’. Hence the translations ‘to wake [someone] (by calling [to him])’, ‘to awaken’, and ‘to arouse’. So, I guess you could say that there’s a little more specific meaning to this than just a general invocation as it inherently implies the “waking up” aspect.

That said, Word Reference does list 呼び起こす [yobiokosu] as a translation of the English verb ‘to invoke’. The other option it offers is 呼び出す [yobidasu], which would be valid, as well. Here’s the link in case you’re interested: http://www.wordreference.com/enja/invoke.

Additionally, I’ve read halfway through this Japanese Bible, and I’ll also say that another verb I’ve come across fairly frequently in the text is 呼び寄せる [yobiyoseru], which can be translated as ‘to call’, ‘to summon’, ‘to send for’, or ‘to call together’.

Now, if you wanted to go for something simpler and avoid the possibility of any added specificity above and beyond just the general concept of the English verb ‘to invoke’, you could very legitimately just use that first part of any of those three compound verbs (which they all have in common) all by itself. This would give you the simple verb 呼ぶ [yobu], which means ‘to call out (to)’, ‘to call’, ‘to invoke, or ‘to summon’ all by itself, and it’s very readily understood.

If you did that, you could use this as your phrase:

淵が淵を呼ぶ [fuchi ga fuchi o yobu]

These can all be translated as ‘to invoke’, but If I had to provide something concise to try to distinguish between these different variations, I would probably write it something like this:

呼び起こす [yobiokosu]
‘to wake by calling to’; ‘to arouse’

呼び出す [yobidasu]
‘to call out’; ‘to summon’

呼び寄せる [yobiyoseru]
‘to call forth’; ‘to call forward’; ‘to summon’

呼ぶ [yobu]
‘to call out to’; ‘to invoke’; ‘to summon’

If it were mine, I would probably go with 淵が淵を呼ぶ [fuchi ga fuchi o yobu]. I honestly think, for your purposes, that would be your best bet, especially since you seem to want to keep it as literal and simple as possible. This one is very literally and very simply “the abyss invoketh the abyss.”

I’ll also mention that I defer to Gary’s native Japanese translator. If you want to be absolutely positive you’re getting it dead on, I would go ahead and pay for the translation service. It’s very reasonably priced and well worth the expense.

I hope that helps.

Scott

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